English 104 - Cora Agatucci
Introduction to Literature: Fiction

Response #3 Notes & Other Class Contributions
ENG 104 Student Writing ~ Fall 2001 ~ webpublished with student permission
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Response #3 Notes: Comparison-Contrast & Evaluation

Kevin Bryant: Evaluation: "A Very Old Man with Enormous Wings" and "Cathedral";
Compare & Contrast: "The Things They Carried" and "The Red Convertible"

Kevin Callon: "The Things They Carried" and "The Red Convertible"

Dan Chapanar: "The Metamorphosis" and "The Red Convertible"

Julie Christensen: "The Red Convertible" and "Cathedral"

Daniel Cox: "Cathedral" and "The Red Convertible"

Adam Fargher: "Cathedral" and Smooth Talk

Tiffany Ferris: "The Things They Carried" and "Cathedral"

Lacey Gregory: Raymond Carver's "Cathedral" and Joyce Carol Oates's
"Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?"

Tina Grossman:  "The Red Convertible" and "The Things They Carried"

Sam Herringshaw:  Louise Erdrich's "The Red Convertible" and
Tim O'Brien's "The Things They Carried"

Eric Jorgenson: "The Red Convertible" and "Cathedral"

Cherstin Kessel: "The Things They Carried" and "The Red Convertible"

Gail Merydith: "The Things They Carried" and "The Yellow Wallpaper"

Dustin Muhly: "Cathedral" and "The Red Convertible"

Pamela Wilson: "The Things They Carried" and "The Red Convertible"

Kenny Wolford (1):  Raymond Carver's "Cathedral" and Louise Erdrich's "The Red Convertible" 

Anonymous [name withheld by student request]:
Compare and Contrast: "Cathedral" and "Hills Like White Elephants";
Evaluation: "Metamorphosis" and "Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?"

Anonymous (2) [name withheld by student request]:
"The Things They Carried" and "Cathedral" 

Anonymous (3) [name withheld by student request]:
Compare & Contrast: "Cathedral" and "The Necklace"
Evaluation: "Cathedral" and "Story of an Hour"

Other Class Contributions

Shonda Ackley [Seminar # 5 - Topic #3  Notes]: Literature into Film - Smooth Talk

Galvin Collins [Seminar # 5 - Topic #3  Notes]: Literature into Film - Smooth Talk

Dustin Muhly (2)  [Seminar # 2 - Topic #2  Notes]: Poe & Maupassant

Kenny Wolford (2) [Seminar # 5 - Topic #3  Notes]: Literature into Film - Smooth Talk

Erin Wulf [Seminar # 2 - Topic #1  Notes]: Poe & Maupassant

Erin Wulf (2) [Seminar # 4 - Topic #3  Notes]: "Hills Like White Elephants" and "A Rose for Emily"

See also Example Student Writing [Midterms & Final] ~ Fall 2001
ENG 104 Author Links Table of Contents  | (1)  A - E  | (2)   F - L  | (3)   M - Z
Literature Links | Contexts: Literary History & Movements | Genre Studies: Fiction | Film Basics
Smooth Talk & Film Adaptation | Contexts: Mid- and Later Twentieth Century

Response #3 Notes: Comparison-Contrast & Evaluation
~ webpublished with student permission ~

Kevin Bryant
English 104, Dr. Agatucci
Response #3
November 21, 2001

Evaluation
["A Very Old Man with Enormous Wings" and "Cathedral"]

            Evaluating the two stories "A Very Old Man with Enormous Wings" and "Cathedral" for the extent to which they open us for moral and social complexities of their theme.  And comparing the stories with how the meaning of their theme leads us to consider the way their actions and issues fit in with larger cultural, social, political, and intellectual concerns.

            The moral and social complexities of each story are only apparent after the whole story is read.  Marquez uses the old man with wings to show how ignorant people often are to the common miracles of life.  Through the very human like characteristics of the man and the genuinely authentic town and citizens Marquez established and anonymous stance on what took place except for the details he places in the story.

            Similarly, Carver uses the invitation of a blind man into his home, breaking the restriction people often place upon themselves when it comes to dealing with people of different qualities.  This invitation at first is a troubling experience for the man telling the story.  At the end though he is seeing the world in whole new perspectives. 

            In Marquez’s story the reader is left with a feeling of emptiness when the man just flies off, never sharing his origin.  Also the tone of the story makes the reader pity the town for their treatment of this man, which never goes resolved.  The emptiness and pity the reader has helps to make the assumption that the people are totally stereotypical and will continue to be after the story ends. 

            However, unlike the continuance of stereotyping in Marquez’s story, Carver contradicts these stereotypes by allowing the voice to see thing in non-stereotypical ways.  Most of the stereotyping can be directly related to the physical condition of the main characters and also the ambiguity.

            The reader finds the old man, “lying down in the mud, who in spite of his tremendous efforts couldn’t get up, impeded by his enormous wings” (313).  Right away we are introduced to this questionable character without any history except that he is in Pelayo’s yard, which happens to be very accepting.  This accepting scene leads to the questioning and exploitation of what this man is instead of just giving him his freedom. 

            Alike, Carver introduces the blind man anonymously through the man telling the story and how his wife met him though a work advertisement.  The fact that this man telling the story has never dealt with or thought about dealing with people of different qualities restricts his ability to act as a free human.  Through the first interactions with the man to the final interactions the reader is able to see the man transform. 

            These correlating themes of people using their natural freedom of living in un-stereotypical ways is what leads the reader to consider the ways the stories’ actions and issues fit in with larger concerns.  Due to the simplicity of the stories the authors were able to help the reader imply the overall concerns.  More of our culture and society should be accepting to the possibilities of this world.  Carver shows how one man’s interaction of drawing with a blind man instantly transformed him to be more accepting of these possibilities.  However, Marquez’s just send the old man off after his time is wasted with these people.  The way the people just forget illustrates the inability to accept all possibilities.

            Overall the possibilities of life and the freedom we all have were depicted by both authors using possible true scenarios.  We as humans often impose our own restrictions upon ourselves thus limiting our endless capabilities.  Carver used a personal account of his own life to open us to new light in his story, where as Marquez uses magical realism to create a believable illusion through his. 

  Compare and Contrast:
"The Things They Carried" and "The Red Convertible"

Comparisons:

-Both stories dealt with the realities and hardships of the Vietnam War.

            -Lyman and Henry day-dream and wander throughout the country.

            -Lieutenant Cross often day-dreams of wander with his girl Martha.

-Even though both stories were about the war, both dealt with individual relationships to signify how everyone had to deal with problem.

-Henry carries the mental weight of the war with him afterwards leading to his suicide.  The soldiers carry mental and physical weight during the war as a means to an end, which is death.

Differences:

            -The Things They Carried was a direct representation of what the war was at the time. The listing of weapons and their weight implies the burden and stress these men were under.  The soldiers were coward to be coward in fighting so they simply pushed all trouble down inside themselves.

            -The Red Convertible was a representation of how the war affected people not there.  The close relationship of the two brothers is destroyed by how the weight of the war was brought home and family was never the same. 

© Kevin Bryant, 2001

© Kevin Callon, 2001

Dan Chapanar
English 104, Dr. Agatucci
Response #3
November 21, 2001  

["The Metamorphosis" and "The Red Convertible"]

    I chose to compare and contrast two stories, one story by Franz Kafka called, "The Metamorphosis" and the other called, "The Red Convertible" by Louise Erdrich.  When reading the two stories, I realized they seem to have more similarities than differences. How the story was written and certain details given were very similar. I noticed in both stories the main character seems to be really close with at least one other family member. In the "Metamorphosis," Gregor Samsa seemed to have a special relationship with his sister.  "His quick-witted sister only needed to observe twice that the armchair stood by the window; after that whenever she had tidied up the room she always pushed the chair back to the same place at the window and even left the inner casements open." (Kafka, 454.)  In the "Red Convertible" Lyman, who is telling the story, has a really close relationship with his brother Henry.  They it seemed they spent a lot of time together when growing up. "We went places in that car, me and Henry.  We too off driving all one whole summer." (Erdrich, 284.)  Another similarity was that while reading the two stories, I could sense something bad was going to happen at the end.  In the "Metamorphosis," you could tell early in the story that Gregor was probably going to die in the end because of what was happening to his life so suddenly and how his family was dealing with the problem.  In the "Red Convertible," the story was going so well until Henry was sent off to the war and came back a different man.  I didn't guess right away that someone was going to die, but I knew something terrible would happen.  Lyman talked about how his brother had been so different since he had gotten back. "I had been feeling in the dumps about Henry around this time.  We had always been together before.  Henry and Lyman.  But he was such a loner now that I didn't know how to take it." 

    One point I noticed in "The Metamorphosis" that seemed sort of odd was how harsh Gregor's family had dealt with the problem.  Gregor had always supported his family on his own and didn't think much of it.  He worked hard enough and earned enough money so that nobody in the whole household would have to get a job.  Everyone depended on Gregor and that's just way it was.  But when his life was instantly turned upside down by metamorphosing into a beetle, his family betrayed him and left him on his own. They went from depending on him straight to wishing he was dead and gone. At the end, they all forgot what he has done in the past and was happy to have him gone.  "Then they all three left the apartment together, which was more than they had done for months, and went by tram into the open country outside the town." (Kafka, 472.)

    With certain details that were given in "The Metamorphosis" when Gregor was first transformed, the reader begins to imagine what it would really be like to be a beetle. He talks how his legs were swinging back forth without his command and how he could sleep because he was used to sleeping a certain way and couldn't quite reach that position.  "What about sleeping a little longer and forgetting all this nonsense, he thought, but it could not be done, for he was accustomed to sleep on his right side and in his present condition he could not turn himself over." (Kafka, 439.)  But when after a repetition of the same efforts he lay in his former position again, sighing, and watch his little legs struggling against each other more wildly than ever..." (Kafka, 442.)  When I read this, my mind began to think how difficult it really would be.

    This story also brings thoughts to a person's head that would not normally appear.  Like what would life be as a beetle and to make it even worse, what it would be like after being a human for so many years prior?  It makes you realize how life would be completely different such as walking with several legs and being able to walk up the walls and across the ceiling.  Yet being restricted from doing so many simple things like being able to communicate with another human.

    In "The Red Convertible," I feel that the meaning of the story was how Lyman and Henry were so close growing up and how much Henry had changed since he had been back from the service.  Lyman talks about how much time the two of them spent together and now Henry is always by himself and doesn't talk much anymore.  At the end, when it seems that Henry might be starting to be his old self again, he jumped in the river for a swim, and his boots fill up with water and drowns. Even though the two brothers had been so close in the past, I didn't get the impression that Lyman was too upset when Henry drowned. Instead of trying to find him or getting some help, it seemed as though he accepted his death and said his good-byes by driving the car into the river.  "By the time I get out of the river, off the snag I pulled myself onto. the sun is down.  I walked back to the car, turn on the high beams, and drive it up the bank. I put it into first gear and then take my foot off the clutch. I get out, close the door, and watch it plow softly into the water. (Erdrich, 290.)

    You can tell by reading "The Red Convertible" that Lyman enjoyed hanging around his brother and was sort of upset when he returned a different man.  He wanted so much for it to be like their old times together. "So I jumped at the chance one day when Henry seemed friendly. It's not that he smiled or anything. He just said, 'Let's take that old shitbox for a spin.' Just the way he said it made me think he could be coming around." (Erdrich, 288.) This is why it seems weird to me that Lyman isn't too disappointed when his brother dies.  Even though Erdrich doesn't tell the rest of the story of what happens to the family, it just seems as though their life will go on the same as always.

© Dan Chapanar, 2001  

Julie Christensen
English 104, Dr. Agatucci
Response #3
November 21, 2001  

The stories that I have chosen to review for response notes #3 are:  “The Red Convertible” by Louise Edrich and  “Cathedral” by Raymond Carver.

Similar Points

Both authors are writing from a first-person male perspective about their own lives and the things around them.

In both of the stories, there is another character that is not very well understood by the main character.  Both main characters are trying to help the other character in some way.

Differences

Until just about the very end of “Cathedral” the main character is threatened by the blind man.  In “The Red Convertible” the relationship between the two main characters remains good until the latter part of the story, when her brother comes back from Vietnam.

“Cathedral” is about a man learning not to fear a person he does not understand.  “The Red Convertible” is about a family trying to heal a member who has been mentally injured by war.

Specific Examples

“The Red Convertible”

When Henry comes back from the war the family does not know what to do, his brother wants to help him but he does not know how... “When he came home, though, Henry was very different, and I’ll say this: the change was no good.” (Edrich 286)  They talked about sending him to the hospital.  “While Henry was not around we talked about what was going to happen to him.    We were afraid that if we brought Henry to a regular hospital they would keep him.”  (Edrich 287)

“Cathedral”

The main character Raymond is very curious about how the blind man has never seen anything.  He tries to help him visualize a cathedral but can’t describe it.  In the end he ends up drawing it for him to both of there personal gains.

  Raymond Carver is very threatened by the blind man in his house.  Spending time with the blind man makes him realize he has nothing to fear.  Drawing the cathedral becomes a meaningful experience for both men.  The blind man says, “Never thought anything like this could happen in your lifetime did you, bub?  Well it’s a strange life, we all know that.  The interaction of these two men ends up to be a learning experience for both of them, and in the end they have a much-improved relationship.

  In the red convertible the two brothers have a very good relationship in the beginning.  It is only after the war that things change.

  In both stories the main character and a supporting character are brought together by an experience they had together.  In “The Red Convertible” it is the car.  In “The Cathedral” it is the drawing.

Part Two

Critical Evaluation Criteria

Daniel Cox
English 104, Dr. Agatucci
Response #3
November 21, 2001  

["Cathedral" and "The Red Convertible"]

1.      The extent to which the story opens for us the emotional, moral, intellectual and social complexities of its theme

Cathedral revolves around a blind man named Robert, and a husband and wife, known as Bub and the wife.  The story is told from the first person of Bub and uses a fair amount of dialogue.  Bub has no idea of what it is like to be blind or know anyone who is blind.  He does not know how to act around anyone who is blind and is awkward around blind people.  In fact, he is irritated that this friend of his wife’s is coming to his house (Carver 100).  The theme of this story revolves around the social problems in dealing with unfamiliar situations and circumstances and how one overcomes them.  Throughout the story, Bub struggles for what to say, and when he says the wrong thing, such as “Which side of the train did you sit on, by the way?” (Carver 101).  As his wife is quick to point out, “What’s it matter which side?” (Carver 101) being the man is blind and can’t see out the window.  After his wife comes down from getting ready for bed and falls asleep on the couch, the two men begin an awkward conversation about Cathedrals that ends up with Bub actually learning from Robert.  Robert shows him how to draw a Cathedral and through the process, Bub begins to see things from Robert’s perspective.  He keeps his eyes closed, only knowing that he is in his own house but feeling like he wasn’t inside anything, but approves of his drawing (Carver 108).

            The Red Convertible involves two brothers who purchase a car and travel around, returning home in time for the older brother to leave for Vietnam.  The theme of the story is the effects of war on a person.  This story well represents what happened to a lot of veterans of wars, in particular the Vietnam War and how the average person doesn’t understand it.  For example, Henry’s mind is messed up when he comes back (Erdrich 286).  Lyman has no idea what is going on.  He thinks his brother joined the army and they made a Marine out of him because he was so tough and he doesn’t know which direction of Vietnam was good or bad, in other words, the North or the South (Erdrich 286).

2.      The extent to which the story allows us to see experience in a new way, strips off the blinders of custom and convention, challenges stereotypical thinking, sentimentality and easy answers

Through the drawing experience, Bub is able to see through the eyes of Robert, despite the fact that Robert doesn’t see with his own eyes.  He can imagine what it looks like and just keeps his eyes closed in order to understand what he is “seeing” without his eyes (Carver 108).  Previous to this experience, Bub has a negative attitude towards Robert, constantly saying the wrong things and irritating his wife.  He is even inconsiderate by turning on the television.  Bub is irritated with his wife’s robe opening up but then realizes it does not matter because Robert cannot see anyway, and he leaves it open (Carver 105).

Lyman begins to realize that his brother is having problems and begins to find ways to get him to deal with it.  He notices his brother bites through his upper lip and doesn’t even care (Erdrich 286-287).  Nothing is actually said regarding what Henry is thinking or going through, only that he is having severe problems emotionally.  The television seems to bring this out.  Lyman damages the car and the television in order to help his brother take his mind off of things (Erdrich 287-288).  He does this in secret only to find out that his brother has been paying more attention to things than he originally thought (Erdrich 289).

I think that both stories do a good job of portraying the social problems of people and the problems associated with people and war, the themes of the stories.  I had a problem at first with the endings of the stories.  After thinking about Cathedral, I realize that Bub was able to deal with his problem by seeing through the eyes of Robert.  Henry dealt with his problem by committing suicide I would guess, or at least being glad his life was over.

© Daniel Cox, 2001

Adam Fargher
English 104, Dr. Agatucci
Response #3
November 21, 2001  

Compare/Contrast of "Cathedral" and "Smooth Talk"

Similarities:

Both of these short stories are very true and could happen to anyone of us.  "Cathedral" was a true story about Carver and his experience with a blind man.  And we can be harassed and persuaded just like Connie in "Smooth Talk."  An example of a story that could not really happen would be Franz Kafka's "The Metamorphosis" where " As Gregor Samsa awoke one morning from uneasy dreams he found himself transformed in his bed into a gigantic insect" (439).

Another one is that the endings in both stories are left for the readers interpretation.  There is no definitive ending.  In "Cathedral" you never know what happens to the narrator and the blind man.  Do they become lifelong friends?  Do they end up enemies?  Does the wife divorce the narrator and marry the blind man?  That's up for you to decide.  The same for "Smooth Talk" in that you don't know what happens.  Does Arnold Friend really kill Connie?  Has this experience changed Connie around?  Will Arnold come back and rape her again?  It's up to your interpretation.

Examples of the endings:

"My eyes were still closed.  I was in my house.  I knew that.  But I didn't feel like I was inside anything.  It's really something, I said" (Cathedral, 439).  

"...so much land that Connie had never seen before and did not recognize except to know that she was going to it" (Smooth Talk, 604).

Differences:

"Cathedral" is a first person narration story.  Carver is narrating the story and is a major character in the story.  "Smooth Talk" is a limited ominiscent third person narration where you can really only see into Connie's mind.

"So I began.  First I drew a box that looked like a house" (Cathedral, 107).

"She thought, I'm not going to see my mother again" (Smooth Talk, 603).

In "Cathedral," I think that there really isn't a turning point and that the story doesn't follow the regular plot structure.  It doesn't get all intense and lively in the last half of the story.  It's actually pretty mellow and relaxing.  "Smooth Talk" has a definite high point.  It's right when Connie gets out of the corner and gives in to Arnold's persuasiveness.  That's the turning point in the story, which then leads to the solution and a change in Connie's attitude.  

"Now get up, honey.  Get up all by yourself.  She stood" (Smooth Talk, 603).

Evaluation Criteria

1.  Plot structure: Is the story organized with an introduction, rising action, climax, falling action, and solution?  Could you follow the story?

2.  Theme: What kinds of emotions does the theme implement? For example: joyous, depressed, angry, scared, relaxed....

"Cathedral", to me, didn't have much plot structure especially towards the end.  It was just continuing on horizontally.  There wasn't any rising action.  There was a solution however and its where the narrator has his eyes closed and he is really seeing what it's like to be blind.  

"Well?, he said.  Are you looking?  My eyes were still closed.  I was in my house.  I knew that.  But I didn't feel like I was anything.  It's really something, I said" (108).

The theme was actually very joyous because you could see that the narrator had totally changed his perspective on how he see's the world.

"Smooth Talk" had a definitive plot structure.  It has the introduction where it talked about Connie and what she is like and then there is the rising action where Arnold was trying to seduce and persuade Connie to go with him.  Then there is the obvious turning point where she gave in to his smooth talk and finally there is the solution where Connie is a changed person.

I think the theme of the story is very noble and brave.  Even though Connie struggled with her family, she cared enough about them that she would do anything to keep them safe.

"You don't want your people in any trouble, do you" (602)?

"You don't want them to get hurt" (603).  

© Tiffany Ferris, 2001

© Cherstin Kessel, 2001

Gail Merydith
Eng 104, Dr. Agatucci
Response . . .  3
November 21, 2001

Compare/Contrast methods of character development between Tim O’Brien’s, “The Things They Carried” and Charlotte Perkins Gilman’s “The Yellow Wallpaper”:

O’Brien uses the “things they (the men in the war) carried” to develop his characters.  Looking at the main character, Lt. Jimmy Cross, one of the things Jimmy carries are letters from Martha.  We come to understand who Cross is through these letters that he re-reads each evening, not just the content of the letters, but also from what the letters mean to him, the care he uses in washing his hands before he unwraps the plastic that he keeps the letters folded in (605).

We also come to know Jimmy as O’Brien shows us Jimmy’s thoughts, fantasies and memories of Martha, and who he thinks she is, “she was a virgin, he was almost sure” (605) and “Martha was a poet, with the poet’s sensibilities” (609).

O’Brien continues listing the things the men carried, the physical as well as the often, heavier, emotional load, “they all carried ghosts.” (610). Through the death of Ted Lavendar, O’Brien further develops Jimmy’s character.  O’Brien continues with descriptions of what the other men carried and their reactions to Lavendar’s death.  When O’Brien brings the reader back to Lt. Jimmy Cross, the Lt. Is burning Martha’s letters.   He has “distanced” himself from Jimmy, the young man trying desperately to hang on to love and home, and he has become Lt. Cross, determined to accept responsibility for his men, to keep them alive, “no more fantasies”; “he would shut down the daydreams”; “he would dispense with love”; “he would show strength, distancing himself” (617, 618).

In “The Yellow Wallpaper”, Charlotte Perkins Gilman, develops her main character through the protagonist’s thoughts and self-dialogue.  We, as the reader come to understand how alone this woman is when we realize that she isn’t even given a name.  The character is further developed through brief dialogue with her husband, John (who has a name!).  John refers to his wife as “darling, “dear” and “little girl” (325).  Gilman shows us the woman’s despair and sense of abandonment, “It is so discouraging not to have any advice and companionship about my work” (321).  We begin to feel her insanity when the character questions “whether that front pattern and the back pattern [of the wallpaper] really did move together or separately.” (325). 

John is seen through the eyes of the protagonist.  He is a very controlling man, of which his wife says, “I have a prescription for each hour in the day, he [John] takes all care from me” (325).  We are shown his condescending attitude toward his wife when, after she has questioned him regarding her health, he tells her, “I beg of you, for my sake and for our child’s sake...Can you trust me as a physician when I tell you so?”

Evaluation

Does the story capture some aspects of human experience vividly, precisely and freshly.

Absolutely!  Tim O’Brien’s, “The Things They Carried” is very vivid in his descriptions and the overall feeling of seeing and watching the men carry their packs, their ammunition, their “ghosts”.   O’Brien’s method of listing the various items and feelings is very unique and well done.

Gilman is equally effective in capturing the human experience, again a very strong feeling to feel her abandonment and slide into insanity.  This was very unique piece of work in her day and still evokes strong feelings today.

 Does the story open for us the emotional, moral, intellectual and social complexities of its theme.

Again – absolutely!  O’Brien brings us into the war, the fox holes, the moral complexity of young men (some would say boys) sent out to fight and lose their lives, or the lives of fellow soldiers to be changed forever.  Robbing what innocence they have, their ability for fantasies and dreams.

Gilman also is successful in bringing us into the depths of a depression turned into madness.  Should one always trust the doctor as, “he knows best”???  Does the doctor, (or husband, or any responsible person) have the responsibility to listen to the patient’s opinions and what she feels would be of help to her?

© Gail Merydith, 2001  

Dustin Muhly
Response #3 Notes 

["Cathedral" and "The Red Convertible"]

Compare and Contrast, “Cathedral” by Raymond Carver and ” by Raymond Carver and “The Red Convertible” by Louise Erdrich.

Compare:

-Both stories showed common stereotypes.

o       Indians can’t make money, “I had a touch for it, unusual in a Chippewa” (pg. 284 Erdrich)

o       Blind people can’t smoke

o       Blind always wear dark glasses and carry a cane. “I always thought dark glasses were a must for the blind” ( pg.102 Carver)

-         The main Characters didn’t understand and almost feared each other

o       Bub didn’t understand the blind and didn’t like how close his wife and Robert where.

o       Henry didn’t understand his brother after the war.

-         Both stories where from a males perspective.

-         They both had references to smoking pot.

o       “Then I asked him if he wanted to smoke some dope with me.” (Pg104 Carver)

o       “ I was a little drunk and stoned” (pg288 Erdrich)

Contrast:

            -     In “Cathedral” the men become friends and understand each other

-         In “The Red Convertible” the men that are the main characters are separated by death.

-          “The Red Convertible” was a lot more dark and sad than “Cathedral”

  My grounds for evaluation are:

            - The story must hold my interest; it must present new ideas or stimulate my imagination.      

            - The story must simulate a human experience; I must be able to relate to the story in some way.

Both stories,” Cathedral” and “The Red Convertible” meet my ground for evaluation.

In “Cathedral” I can relate to how Bub was threatened by how close Richard and his wife are. I can also relate to the conversation about what Bub is seeing on T.V and trying to describe it to a blind man.

“The Red Convertible” held my interest and had a surprising ending, even though the first paragraph gave a summery of the ending. ”Now Henry owns the whole car, and his younger brother Lyman (that’s myself), Lyman walks everywhere he goes.” (Pg284 Erdrich)  This was cleaver and I didn’t relate to it until I read the story twice

© Dustin Muhly, 2001

Pamela Wilson
Response #3 Notes

["The Things They Carried" and "The Red Convertible"]

1.                  The Things They Carried by Tim O’Brien and The Red Convertible by Louis Erdrich

·        Similarities

o       Both stories gave me a feeling on how people tried to survive being in a war situation by using physical objects to keep them going.  In The Things They Carried, I think that Jimmy was able to survive being shot at every day because of his letters from Martha.  By imagining that they were in love, it kept a part of himself in the US instead of in Vietnam.  Example:  “They were not love letters, but Lieutenant Cross was hoping, so he kept them folded in plastic at the bottom of his rucksack.” (P.605) In The Red Convertible, Henry was able to get back into a somewhat normal mood when his brother basically dared him to fix the car again.  It was something that they did before he went off to war and it probably made him forget for a time.  Example:  “After that I thought he’d freeze himself to death working on that car.  He was out there all day, and at night he rigged up a little lamp, ran a cord out the window, and had himself some light to see by while he worked.  He was better than he had been before. But that’s still not saying much.  It was easier for him to do the things the rest of us did.  He ate more slowly and didn’t jump up and down during the meal to get this or that or look out the window.”  (P.288)

·        Differences

o       In the Red Convertible, the writer uses First Person narration but in The Things They Carried, I got confused by which narration they used.  Sometimes if felt like it was first person (Jimmy Cross) and other times it feels like third person, depending on who they were talking about.

2.                  Critical Evaluation Criteria

·        “The extent to which the story captures some aspects of human experience vividly, precisely and freshly”  (The Ground of evaluation of fiction by John Lye)

o       I think the author meet this criterion in the story The Things They Carried.  I got the feeling when I was reading the story how it might of felt to be there.  With him giving the weight of everything they carried, it reinforced how it might have been in those awful conditions.

§         Example:  “The things they carried were largely determined by necessity.  Among the necessities or near necessities were P-38 can openers, pocket knives, heat tabs, wrist watches, dog tags, mosquito repellant, chewing gum, candy, cigarettes, salt tables, packets of Kool-Aid, lighters, matches, sewing kits, Military Payment Certificates, C rations, and two or three canteens of water.  Together, these items weighed between fifteen and twenty pounds, depends upon a man’s habits or rate of metabolism.  (P. 606)

·        “The extent to which the story draws us to think and imagine in such a way that we become involved in the issues and decisions with which the story confronts us”  (The Ground of Evaluation of fiction by John Lye)

o       I think that Louise Endrich captures this criterion in the story The Red Convertible.  The way she wrote the story, I felt I was part of the decisions the family faced in the story.

Example:  “White Henry was now around we talked about what was going to happen to him.  There was no Indian doctors on the reservation, and my mom was afraid of trusting the old man, Moses Pillager, because he courted her long ago, and was jealous of her husbands.  He might take revenge through her son.  We were afraid that if we brought Henry to a regular hospital they would keep him.” (P.287)

© Pamela Wilson, 2001

Kenny Wolford (1)
English 104, Dr. Agatucci
Response #3
November 21, 2001  

Raymond Carver and “The Cathedral”
"The Red Convertible" by Louise Erdrich

Notes on Raymond Carver and “The Cathedral”

-Carver motivated to become writer in college, but found life to be challenging and writing didn’t pay the bills initially.

-Story was written late in his life and he had 3 distinct styles as his writing evolved.

-Drew upon Hemingway’s short, choppy style.

-Uses 1^st person Narrator (husband)

-“on the last day in the office, the blind man asked if he could touch her face.  She agreed to this.  She told me he touched his fingers to every part of her face, her nose, even her neck!  She never forgot it.”    This is valuable passage, because as the story evolves, we realize that a blind person can only physically touch small objects (hands are his mind’s eye).  The idea of a cathedral is outside his touch and outside of his comprehension.

-“Imagine a woman that could never see herself as she was seen in the eyes of her loved one.”  Is sight and beauty a whole person or what their physical being looks like?  This is a true lesson about humanity and what most people seem to value and that is physical beauty.

-Story climax is the cathedral and the husband trying to describe it and then draw it for and with the blind man.  

2 Criteria for evaluation of “The Cathedral” by Raymond Carver

1.  Does the story draw me into becoming involved in the issues (social, psychological)

2.  Do I personally relate to the Narrator (husba

It is an amazing exercise to set up these two criteria before reading The Cathedral.  What surprised me the most was that I didn’t believe that my criteria were being met throughout most of the story.  I could only feel the closed minded point of view of the husband, his stereotyping of the “blind man” and his wife’s “first love.”  I was sure that I was going to hate this story and I only had a few pages to go and the narrator was still being a complete chauvinist, racist bastard with his own evil inner dialog as the story. 

Well, the story is aptly named “The Cathedral” because exactly when the cathedral comes onto the TV and the husband tries to explain and describe to the blind man what a cathedral looks like is the climax of the story.  It is a true turning point in the story and the beginning of my criteria being met.  I was suddenly interested in the story and drawn into the issues of what it must be like to be blind, not only for the blind man, but for the husband and his lack of sight and empathy towards anyone outside his own shell.  The pen and paper and the drawing of the cathedral by both men helped to satisfy criteria

#2.  Perhaps I did relate to the narrator only in that we are all blind in some facet.  This point was driven home in that the husband could not really describe the full realm of what a cathedral looks like because he is not religious and perhaps only a strongly religious person can do justice to a verbal and spiritual description of a cathedral.

Notes on "The Red Convertible" by Louise Erdrich

-Red convertible symbolic of freedom and prosperity

-1^st person narration, but much softer than in The Cathedral

-exposition was not direct…characters were exposed more through the action and the job, car, travel…

-written like many Native American tales where there is a clear moral or lesson that is to be passed on by the story teller.

-Red convertible acted as a way to bring two people closer together in something that they could both relate to. 

-Erdrich is very descriptive unlike Carver.

-We are given a hint about the “boots filling up,” but have no idea the scope of the tragedy.

-We can all relate to human tragedy and losing a friend.

2 Criteria for evaluation of “The Red Convertible” by Louise Erdrich

1.  Does the story draw me into becoming involved in the issues (social, psychological)

2.  Do I personally relate to the Narrator

Although this story is written somewhat about Native American Indian life, it is also written about hope, friendship, prosperity, war, depression and tragedy.  I was drawn into the story immediately because I remember what it was like to have my first car that I was so proud of, to get it out on the open road where it would take me to new and exciting places.  I remember the companionship of my friend that sat along side of me on those road trips and what it was like to come home.  I have had friends that have been transformed from happy go lucky, jovial boys into depressed, and beaten down men.  It was not war that transformed them, but all the same, they were different from their Post Traumatic Stress and never recovered.  I guess that you can say that their “boots filled with water.”  I finally took the photos of these friends off the wall just like Lyman did of Henry and he next to the convertible because it reminded me of how great it once was and how it did not stay that way.  This story did meet my criteria.  I related from beginning to end unlike “The Cathedral” where I was drawn in towards the end of the story.

© Held by student, 2001

Other Class Contributions
~ webpublished with student permission ~

Shonda Ackley 
Seminar # 5 - Topic #3  Notes
Literature into Film - Smooth Talk

A. One item that was not in the movie, Smooth Talk, that I learned about in the film basics handout was voice over narration.  Voice-over may explain what is not shown, or comment on what is only implied by onscreen action, setting, character (Film Basics 4.) This is a very significant feature that could help the audience understand what's going on in the character's mind.  In short stories the authors can describe with words the characters thoughts, however in film narrative the director can only imply with actions.  I think that with Hemmingway's “Hills Like White Elephants”, this would have helped our guess in what the lady was going to do in the end.  However, I guess film narrative does try to be as close to the short story as possible and Hemmingway left too many holes to be filled in with imagination.  It was just his style.  A second significant difference between the short story and film narrative was characterization.  In film narrative we only get to see and hear through the camera. What we see through the camera is up to the director.  It is similar to short stories because we only get to see the words on paper and that is up to the author, but we still can use our imagination.  I would list more differences but there was so much I learned in this handout that I have to draw the line somewhere.  Film basics I think would have made a great subject for our final paper.

B. Differences between the original short story, "Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been" and the film "Smooth Talk."

1. Connie had more of an ambiguous relationship with her father in the film.

2. Connie and her mother's relationship seemed more gruel in the film.

3. Connie and her friends flirting and following guys in the mall were more significant in the film.

4. When the girls went to the restaurant the first time they were scared and no one even talked to them for a long time.

5. Connie's outfits were more revealing in the film.

6. Connie was less rude to Arnold Friend in the film.

7. Arnold Friend was not threatening Connie about her family.

8. Connie and Arnold Friend went to the field.

9. Connie came home after her ride with Arnold Friend.

10. Her family became very sincere suddenly when she came home.

C.  I chose the third option "transformation" critics assume the novel and film are separate, autonomous arts, "consider the novel raw material which the film alters significantly." Even though I believe the majority of the film was similar to the short story, I believe that the film ending in itself changed the story as a whole.  Carol Oate's story did portray the typical American teenager who daydreamed about boys and who did portray herself as easy.  However, the story ended as though she was a hero for her family.  As a reader we got the impression that she went with Arnold Friend because of fear for her family's life.  Also, we were left to think that she was raped and possibly murdered.  However, in the film “Smooth Talk” Arnold Friend did not threaten Connie's family.  Connie just gave in and went with him.  Connie even came home after her drive with Arnold.  Because of this, the ending was a moral learning.  She lost her virginity because of her actions and learned a lesson so to speak.  This brought her and her family suddenly closer.  It seemed that her encounter with Arnold Friend changed her into a good girl.  The endings were very significantly different which made both, as a whole, different from each other.

  © Shonda Ackley, 2001

Galvin Collins
Seminar # 5 - Topic #3  Notes
Literature into Film - Smooth Talk

A. Well when I saw the film adaptation of Smooth Talk the first thing that I noticed was that the movie did a whole lot more in the first half of character building.  In the written version the writer briefly described how the main character acted and a little about her mind set but in the film we got to see how she acted and we were able to develop our own ideas of what the character is like. In this I think that the film did a better job.  If you can draw your own conclusion as to what the characters are like by the way they act is much stronger than just saying what they are like.

B. In the story she in the end she goes off with Arnold Friend and then the story ends.  Now we don’t know what happens we don’t know what they did and we don’t even know if she ever made it back home. Now in the film she goes off in the end and there is a series of shots of them driving then a shot of the car sitting in a field empty and the two people are no were to be seen. Then the last seen is the girl coming home with a short dialogue with her parents. Now this version adds some closure that the story didn’t.  It also lends the idea that the girl might have been raped on the drive.  The shot of the empty car makes you think that something happened that wasn’t good.

C. 2. Pluralist: The film stuck true to the original idea of the story.  I think that they had to add some elements to make a short story into a full-length film.  They also had to elaborate on some of the ideas of the story.  Now they made a whole thing about her going to the burger place in the movie and they just briefly mentioned that in the story.  I think that had a lot to do with character development.

© Galvin Collins, 2001

Dustin Muhly (2)
Seminar # 2 - Topic #2  Notes

[Poe & Maupassant]

Characteristics of literary movement Romanticism that are applicable to Edgar Allen Poe:

-         Exotic local: The catacombs

-         Solitary quest: Montresor is angry but he doesn’t tell any one. He just seeks his revenge.

-         Obsessive Characters: Montresor has a strong hatred toward Fortanoto.

-         Journeys into hell: The catacombs are like hell

Characteristics of realism that is applicable to Maupassant:

-Relationships of middle class people: Mme. Forestier had an average life and relationship with her husband.

-Disillusioned view of life: She is very unhappy with her life and feels she is worth more.

-Mixed Characters: She is weak and petty in the beginning of the story then at the end she shows her strength.

Montresor: He is a very dynamic character. He shows several sides of himself. In the beginning he is a very bitter man. Then he acts very friendly to Fortunato and wants him to come over and show his wine skills. Then you find out that it is just a very elaborate plan to kill him. Then when he is done he shows sarcasm.

© Dustin Muhly, 2001

Kenny Wolford (2)
English 104, Dr. Agatucci
Seminar # 5 - Topic #3  Notes

Literature Into Film

   The Story “Where are You Going, Where Have You Been,” by Joyce Carol Oates was adapted into a film by Joyce Chopra called “Smooth Talk.”  There were significant creative differences between the story and the film.

1. Creative Differences

  The creation of Oates’ original story came from a magazine article of a serial killer in Arizona…although the reader does not know that while reading the story, it is that information that Oates uses and sets her tone for the ending of the story.

  Chopra either did not know that A. Friend was a serial killer or she wanted to “soften” the message so that it would appeal to a broad audience and not have such violent undertones.

  Film brings such a different type of information to our brain…we process moving pictures and sound differently than we do words on a page.  Reading allows us to stop reading and digest the story where film is a locomotive, filling us with almost too much information.  “The writer works in a single dimension, the director works in three.”(Oates, pg. 915 Charters)

  Film was set in the 1980s, Story set in the mid 1960’s.  A. Friend’s character and his friend in the car were a James Dean looking “Rebel”…There was even a poster of James Dean in Connie’s bedroom in the film.

  Oates does not build up the father’s character much in the story, but Chopra really uses him. 

  “What is so difficult to accomplish in prose-nudging the reader to look over the protagonist’s shoulder, so to speak-is accomplished with enviable ease in film.” (pg. 915 Charters).

  Oates’ story speaks of “music” often and it allows the reader to imagine what type of music is playing in the background…the film uses James Taylor’s music which allows for less interpretation.

2. Key Changes and Differences

Decade story was set in (60’s vs. 80’s)

Development of Mother/father as characters.

Ending (loss of virginity vs. rape and murder).

Arnold Friend reached the threshold of the screen door in the movie…it was a very taboo symbolic threshold in the story by Oates.

3. Evaluate Smooth Talk

I must be a “transformation” critic with almost all film adapted from literature.  In Smooth Talk, it was clearly a “separate, autonomous art.”  The ambiguous ending in the short story left me contemplating the atrocity of what was about to happen to Connie and I felt sorry for her situation as well as the situation of many teenagers, not only in Connie’s time, but today.  Teenagers don’t know how much trouble their hormones and defiance of their parent can get them in.   The film took the message too far.  It was not ambiguous…and I feel that the change in the ending was more for the sake of appealing to a larger audience and for a PG rating than it was for the effective message.  The acting, especially of Connie and A. Friend was great and if I had not read the story, I would have appreciated the art of the film much more.  Humans in this day and age of television would rather be spoon fed the plot by film than to take the time to read a story and really stop and digest the message.

  © Kenny Wolford, 2001

Erin Wulf 
Seminar # 2 - Topic #1 Notes 

[Poe & Maupassant]

A.        Poe’s main points are:

Every sentence and every word needs to reflect the intention of the story.

  Although beauty can be approached better through poetry; terror, passion, horror, and things like that work better in story form.

Truth is better understood in a story that a poem

Poe sees Hawthorne’s tales as beautiful, inventive and creative

Maupassant’s main points are:

It is impossible to write a “true” story, for it would take volumes to write everything.

Authors pull from their own experiences

Don't give away the ending

State facts, let the reader decide the tone of the story 

B.        Poe and Maupassant agree on:

Be selective about details

Stories should not be overly long

Poe and Maupassant dissagree on:

Poe focuses on the art of the story, Maupassant focuses on how close the story comes to reality 

Poe thinks it very important to grab the reader, and Maupassant thinks it important to have a deep and hidden meaning.

C.                 Poe follows his own rules very well in “The Cask of Amontillado”.  The story can be read in one sitting, it grabs the reader and pulls them in, and the wording and sentences are very artful.  He is also very selective in his details, making it a much stronger story.

Maupassant also follows his own rules very well in “The Necklace”.  The story is not too long, it seems very close to real life, the ending is truly a surprise, and he states facts and lets the reader figure out the emotions, rather that force-feeding it to the reader the way he sees it.

  © Erin Wulf, 2001

Erin Wulf (2) 
Seminar # 4 - Topic #3 Notes 

["Hills Like White Elephants" & "A Rose for Emily"]

A.                 “Hills Like White Elephants”  

In “Hills Like White Elephants”, the film version made it more obvious what they were talking about.  It showed the emotions and tone of voice, so the watcher knew exactly how the people were feeling, rather than having to deduce it for themselves like in the story.  The dialogue was slightly different, but not enough to really make a difference.  The woman bartender in the movie played a larger role in the movie than in the story.  In the story, she just brought the drinks, but in the movie, she gave the main woman character a drink of water, and talked a little bit about her being sick, helping show the audience that the main woman character was pregnant.

“A Rose For Emily”

            In “A Rose For Emily”, the story version skipped around in time, while the movie version was in chronological order.  This made it less confusing, and made the outcome less of a surprise.  The movie left out details, such as the taxes, and it didn’t really show the length of time very well.  The story directly said that it was seventy or so years, while the movie seemed like it was twenty or so.  The ending was much more dramatic in the story than in the movie.  The lady’s face in the movie made the ending seem more comical than dramatic.

B.        I liked the story version of both stories better than the film versions.  The stories both had fairly twisted plotlines that were sometimes hard to follow.  I thought that made the stories more interesting, and the ending harder to guess.  In “Hills Like White Elephants”, the film made it much more obvious what was going on, and ruined the mystery of the story.  In “A Rose For Emily”, the story was very interesting due to the fact that the reader had to concentrate to figure out the timeline.  In the movie, it was just given, and therefore there was no intellectual buy-in.

C.           In film, emotions are easier to express using facial expressions and inflection in the voice.  It’s also easier to built tension in a movie using background music.  Movies are also more artistic than stories, and a director can play around with camera angles, lighting, and background music.  An author has to try to get the same effect using only words.  In books, it’s easier to get inside people’s minds using narrative.  In a movie there would have to be a running dialogue throughout the entire movie to get the same effect, and it would take away from the movie. 

  © Erin Wulf, 2001

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ENG 104 STUDENT WRITING ~ FALL 2001
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